The Color of Santa

Ladies, Gentlemen, children of all ages…

I regret to inform all those who thought Santa must be white that he is a fictional character.  Of course, the Bigger Picture will be shown; our modern day fictional Santa Claus is based on a real historical figure.  The premise of this article?  He wasn’t white.

Saint Nick is based on a historical figure known as Nikolaos of Myra or Sanctus Nicolaus (Latin) and he lived from 15 March 270 to 6 December 343.  He was from Greece, but only by the way of political boundary. He was born in Patara, which is in the Antalya Province, modern day Turkey.  This means that he isn’t white, at least by today’s standards anyway. In fact he would look like an old Middle-Eastern fellow with white hair, among the ethnicity that hasn’t been considered a part of the white conglomerate since 9/11.  He had a reputation for secret gift-giving, such as putting coins in the shoes of those who left them out in the open (hence, the stuffed sock and boot hanging) and thus became the model for modern Santa Claus.

The reason why this is even brought up, is due to a prominent Fox News anchor truly insisting that Santa Claus is just white… just as the Easter Bunny is just oviparous.

Megyn Kelly of Fox News made what she clearly thought was an important interjection on her show concerning a black blogger on the notion of Santa’s ethnicity:

“And by the way, for all you kids watching at home, Santa just is white.  But this person is maybe just arguing that we should also have a black Santa.  But, you know, Santa is what he is, and just so you know, we’re just debating this because someone wrote about it, kids.

Just because it makes you feel uncomfortable doesn’t mean it has to change.  You know, I mean, Jesus was a white man too.  He was a historical figure; that’s a verifiable fact – as is Santa, I want you kids watching to know that.”

Pot calling kettle?  Just because it makes you feel uncomfortable doesn’t mean it has to change.  And this statement alone is the very reason why this article exists.

The irony of Megyn Kelly’s idiotball last week is that while she was lambasting an Afro-American essayist who had argued that a white Santa was a flawed notion by modern standards by telling her that “just because something makes you uncomfortable doesn’t mean it has to change”the fact is, it is Megyn Kelly and white conservatives alike who apparently NEED Santa to be white — precisely for a level of comfort, that is.  Which is why they changed him so as to make him such, even though many of the earliest depictions of him (as the feature picture clearly illustrates) is more closely to the logical and historical truth.  It is she who represents those who change things to make them comfortable to the point at which they accept the change and deviation from the reality, as some sort of truth.

Which brings us to the far more important point: why do white people apparently require white heroes, icons and saviors?  And why do they need to act strange when ethnicities other than white question that, and wish for their own representation?  The defense of white defaultness of a fictional character is telling.  It speaks of a socio-psychological compulsiveness that needs to be honestly addressed.  Not merely stated, but brought to question.  Why is it necessary for a fictional character to be white? and here’s the bigger picture — can white people of America see past race?

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  • thekid7777

    The biggest flaw with your argument here is that you think only white conservatives (Republicans) think Santa is white. Politics has nothing to do with this. I bet you a million dollars that if you gather 10,000 white Democrats and ask them to describe Santa most all of them will say Santa is white. The reason for this is that the myth of Santa is largely a European tradition and (wait for it) the bulk of Europeans are white. Santa was merely crafted in their own image because it was primarily their tradition. So my question to you is, what’s wrong with that? White Europeans started it, why shouldn’t he modeled after them? If Santa has started in central Africa he’d be black.

  • The Kid, first and foremost, thank you for your comment and supporting our web magazine! I like to address your comment on a point by point basis.

    1] “…you think only white conservatives (Republicans) think Santa is white”.

    Your first statement is a safe assumption, but it’s still a flawed assumption at best. You don’t have sufficient enough evidence to declare what precisely are my thoughts. To be clear, I do not think “only conservative/Republicans” think Santa — a fictional character, is “just white”. But I DO know that Megyn Kelly of Fox News, a channel that wishes itself to be a voice of conservatives DID in fact make the claim that’s being addressed. Forgive me for not exactly being inclusive of all political reason, but this piece here is addressing a statement and political argument, made by a conservative/Republican news anchor.

    2] “Politics has nothing to do with this.”

    And we find agreement; which is precisely why Megyn Kelly should have never injected that in the first place.

    3] “I bet you a million dollars that if you gather 10,000 white Democrats and ask them to describe Santa most all of them will say Santa is white.”

    And I also agree; however it was not a Democrat MSNBC news anchor who vehemently made the claim that a fictional character — who in spirit is represented by every race or ethnicity around the word — is JUST white. Santa Claus, is JUST everyone who dons the jacket and hat, supplies hope, joy, gadgets and toys to families around the world in the name of Christmas and passion.

    3] “Santa was merely crafted in their own image because it was primarily their tradition. So my question to you is, what’s wrong with that?”

    And that’s what sparks the question: WHY change anything at all? Why couldn’t Santa Claus be accepted as he existed ethnically? Megyn Kelly broke word explicitly:

    “Just because it makes you feel uncomfortable doesn’t mean it has to change.”

    ^So WHY does he has to change to appease? There’s a hypocritical nature to DEMAND that a person doesn’t change something, when it was changed in the first place. I do not aim to say it’s wrong… I understand that psychological nature of yearning to see your heroes look like you. But with all that’s said, it’s largely hypocritical, at best.

    The Kid, also, Merry Christmas, and despite disagreement I hope you enjoy the articles present.

    • thekid7777

      1st – I can assume to know what you’re thinking because you said exactly what you’re thinking, “the fact is, it is Megyn Kelly and white conservatives alike who apparently NEED Santa to be white — precisely for a level of comfort, that is.” You said exactly what you’re thinking, that only white conservatives think Santa is white. You can’t back track what you said. If you’re going to make a wild proclamation like that, at least stand by it.
      2nd – It seems everyone could do with a bit of a lesson on the origins of modern Santa Claus. While Santa does have some roots in St Nikolaus (who was actually of Greek ancestry because Patara was actually a Greek city and not just a territory of Greece, thereby making him a European) Santa is actually a conglomeration of figures. First and foremost Santa, as we know him, descends from the Dutch myth of Sinterklaas who is partly based on St. Nikolaus. Santa also stems from Norse mythology and is partly based on the Norse god Odin who used to lead a winter hunt across the sky; this is why Santa flies a sleigh through the night. Santa is also based on the British myth of Father Christmas from whom Santa Claus gets his image. Father Christmas was most often portrayed as a large, jolly man with a beard and red or green fur robe. All of these various myths (which all originated in Europe) are what form the Western version of Santa Claus. Santa Claus has been in existence in America since at least 1773 when the term was first used in printed press. So, there is absolutely nothing even remotely Middle Eastern or non-white about Santa Claus. I ask my question again, seeing as how Santa has been white since his “birth” some 250-300 (or longer depending on what country you’re from) years ago, what’s wrong with him being white today?
      3rd – You obviously did not see Megyn Kelly’s follow up to that story where she said that she was joking when she made those comments and in fact the entire piece on Santa was a light hearted piece and was not a serious story.
      Last – I do enjoy the website, thanks very much. Merry Christmas to you as well.

  • “1st – I can assume to know what you’re thinking because you said exactly what you’re thinking, “the fact is, it is Megyn Kelly and white conservatives alike who apparently NEED Santa to be white — precisely for a level of comfort, that is.” You said exactly what you’re thinking, that ONLY white conservatives think Santa is white.”

    The Kid, I think what you have there is an error in your reasoning. You just quoted me verbatim illustrating that there’s no “only” present in my parlance, then you go insisting that that’s what I said or was thinking. I should at least have the adjective in statement before being accused of using it, should I not? I stand PRECISELY BY what I said; and you are currently putting words in my mouth. ONLY, is exists as an adjective first, and an adverb second, modifying a statement to mean alone in kind or class. I didn’t mention the modifying words, only, or alone. This argument of yours is a straw argument; it’s not what I said, plain and simple, and you can read it again if you like.

    “While Santa does have some roots in St Nikolaus (who was actually of Greek ancestry because Patara was actually a Greek city and not just a territory of Greece, thereby making him a European)”

    He was not of Greek ancestry ethnically; he was Turkish. Patara is located in Turkey, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patara_%28Lycia%29

    I also imagine that you never seen of met a Turk before. They are olive skinned people, much like those who are Arab, Israeli, Persian, etc. That’s not considered white these days. In addition, that’s not considered Greek these days, either. He’s only Greek by POLITICAL National boundary at the time; kind of like how the boundaries moved between the Louisiana Purchase, the annexation of Texas from Mexico, the formation of South Sudan as a nation, the break up of Czechoslovakia, the break up of the Roman Empire, the break up of the USSR. The Real Saint Nick isn’t Greek in the same manner that all the countries the USSR absorbed didn’t make them “Russian”.

    Furthermore, the aptly named St. Nicholas Center has used forensic evidence to illustrate that the Real Saint Nick would have looked like; it’s the top center portrait among the six, posted here: http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/real-face/

    That should close the case, right there. I’m glad you mentioned mythology… but the article is on the REAL Saint Nick, not mythical figures. Odin is not a real person.

    “Santa Claus has been in existence in America since at least 1773 when the term was first used in printed press.”

    But Sanctus Nicolaus lived from 15 March 270 to 6 December 343. That’s approximately 1,470 years ago. That predates, and trumps, anything mythical from 1773.

    “So, there is absolutely nothing even remotely Middle Eastern or non-white about Santa Claus.”

    Actually, there is, and the St. Nicholas Center confirms that with forensic evidence. Now I could dig further into your superlative tense of “absolutely nothing”, which makes your statement categorically false, but I’ll just add it’s ironic on how you built a straw argument as if I spoke in superlative absolutes one way, yet you do the same in another. Had you said “This means there’s SOME white mythical references too”, you’d been correct. Saying there’s NO olive skinned, non-whiteness about the REAL Saint Nick, which Santa is built on? False.

    “3rd – You obviously did not see Megyn Kelly’s follow up to that story where she said that she was joking–”

    –And I’ll have to stop you right there. The Kid, I say it’s safe to assume you are an American of at least 17 years of age, correct? This means that you should understand and be able to discern between genuine jokes, actual comedy, from the defensive posture of saying you were joking in retrospect AFTER a particular backlash. The reason why I didn’t want to even touch that, is because I really wanted this to me more about Saint Nick than Megyn Kelly. That claim she made afterward, was dishonest at best. It was a cover up. It’s like if someone said saying vulgar about your mom or your sister, and turn your head with furrowed brow and say, “what did you say?” And then the person proclaims “just playing” or “just joking”.

    Fact is, it was NOT a joke. No one laughed when she said it, and like most things that people pretend was a joke after a backlash, it was not funny.

    If you believe that was a genuine joke — meaning, you cannot discern between actual comedy and defensive postering in parlance, perhaps one can sell you the Brooklyn Bridge or the Hudson Bay.

    • thekid7777

      Ugh, I have you a chance to take what I said and admit that you made a historical error. St. Nikolaus could not have been Turkish because Turkey was not a country when he was alive. In fact Turkey has only been a country since 1923. I’d say that’s a few years past his time. As I pointed out to you already, more than once, that part of the world was under Greco-Roman influence/occupation at the time of St. Nikolaus, it was under that influence/occupation for 1400 years from the time it was conquered by Alexander the Great (you may have heard of him) until actual Middle Eastern Muslims arrived there in the 11th century AD (they were called Seljuks). St. Nikolaus was not Turkish because there was no such country at that time.

      As for the basis of Santa Clause, I explained that (in great detail) to you as well. St. Nikolaus is not Santa Claus, he was only a small basis for the myth. The actual myth of Santa that we use here in America originated in Europe!!!! Santa, American Santa, is based on a conglomeration of European mythical figures. If you’re going to talk about Santa Claus you have to discuss the entire origin of the myth and not just the part that fits your ridiculous argument. You can’t say Odin doesn’t count because Odin wasn’t real. I’ve got news for you, Santa Claus wasn’t real and we’re discussing him! The fact of the matter is you didn’t take the time to properly research your topic. You didn’t research the Santa Claus myth, you didn’t research the history of the Turkish region. And for some reason you can’t just admit that you made a mistake. Do yourself a favor, use this as a learning experience. In the future do proper and thorough research, all of this information is readily available online if you would only take the time to read it for yourself. If you’re going to be a successful write you need to do a better job.

    • thekid7777

      PS, the website you cited about the recreation of St Nikolaus portrays him as a Greek, not a Middle Easterner. “This gave it Greek Mediterranean olive-toned skin, brown eyes, and grey hair and beard, trimmed in 4th century fashion.” The same skin tone that is currently found in modern Greeks and Italians. Did you even bother to read what was written?

  • “…what’s wrong with him being white today?”

    I believe this is the main premise of your charge, so I wanted to address it in a stand-alone comment.

    If you have read my words carefully, you’d understand that there’s no problem with Santa being white; I take issue with the notion that Santa is JUST white (as she said) as if there’s no way that he can be represented by any other ethnicity other than white.

    That’s hogwash; Santa Claus is a not even a mythical figure; he’s an essence or spirit people adopt for their families. Santa Claus is NOT a white exclusive; his mantle is taken up each year by men and women of all ethnities, colors and shades. It’s absurd to say he’s JUST white; he isn’t. He’s not even real, and the real one was not white by today’s standards.

    So, my charge is not “why is he white” (he can be anything) it’s “why does he need to be, JUST white? Does an entire race hold a registered trademark on his skin tone? How is that possible?

    • thekid7777

      Ok I get that. And I agree with that. If the American people want to make Santa into whatever color they wish, it’s fine by me. But to base your argument on the notion that Santa was never white, as you did when you said “He wasn’t white”, is entirely false. Santa has always been a white guy, since the very beginning. If by “the real one” you’re referring to St. Nikolaus then yes he was actually white by today’s standards. From the time Alexander conquered the region in the 330’s BC until the arrival of the Seljuks (Middle Eastern Muslims) in the 11th century AD, that region was populated by Greeks, Romans and other people from throughout the Roman Empire (primarily Europeans). That’s nearly 1400 years of European influence and occupation in that region. Just because Turkey is a Middle Eastern country today does not mean it was then, it wasn’t. And as I said before, Santa Claus is only partly based on St. Nikolaus; his image is primarily derived from the British myth of Father Christmas and the Dutch myth of Sinterklaas.

      If America wants to make him into something that suits their individual needs then so be it, but don’t use pseudo-history to support your argument. And you really should have left the politics out of this. I understand that you were discussing Megyn Kelly’s comments but she doesn’t speak for all white people, let alone all conservatives; especially when she’s speaking in jest. I’m sorry if this posting seems offensive or disrespectful but it upsets me when people speak definitively about subjects they don’t fully understand.

      • I skimmed over a few things, I’ll post again when I take my type of time to read your goods. One thing that strikes me, is that you seem to either obfuscate, or don’t know the difference between ethnicity and nationality.

        You see, at the time, due to political boundary (NATIONAL borders), he’s greek. But his ethnicity, is Turkish. Here’s an example to illustrate my point:

        This person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ayo_warsaw_november2008.jpg

        This person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Patrick_Owomoyela.jpg

        And this person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haddaway_08-2004.jpg

        Are, in fact, German. They are German people, as in, that’s their nationality. This is what you’d find on their passport — German. This is due to political boundary and Afro-Diaspora.

        Now, after examining the pictures, I’m certain that you would not argue that these three Germans, are ETHNICALLY German people. They are not. This illustrates the case of Nikolaos of Myra — he’s Greek by way of Nationality, but his ethnicity… his bloodline… his genetic make, makes him Arab looking, which is not white by today’s standards.

        • thekid7777

          Dude what you don’t seem to get is that the people who populated the region of Patara actually came from Greece. Greek people, ethnic Greeks, got in their ships and colonized that region bringing their bloodline with them. What don’t you understand about that? The people who lived in that region at the time of St. Nikolaus were genetic ancestors to the race of people who lived in Greece. This has nothing to do with political boundaries. I already told you were wrong there too because that region was under Roman rule so in political terms he would have been a Roman. He was actually genetically related to the Greek people who first colonized that region circa 1200BC and lived there for the next 2000 years. How do you not get that?

  • “St. Nikolaus could not have been Turkish because Turkey was not a country when he was alive.”

    I do believe I explicitly state that the distinction between political boundaries and the fact that I say, MODERN DAY Turkey. I also stated the distinction between nationality and ethnicity. I stated ETHNICITY. I clearly wrote that his nationality was Greek when I say “by way of political boundary.

    Here’s a question: When the Japanese occupied and modified the poltical boundary of China with the State of Manchuria, did all the Chinese that lived there all of a sudden became ethnically, ETHNICALLY Japanese?

    • thekid7777

      The fact remains that during the time of St. Nikolaus that region of the world had been under Greco/Roman occupation for about 500 years. It was not a matter of political boundaries. That region was actually a Greek region. Greek people had been living there for hundreds of years. St. Nikolaus was an actual, blood relation Greek. He was an ethnic Greek. Even the St. Nikolaus DNA recreation website you linked to called him a Greek and described him as having Greek features “This gave it Greek Mediterranean olive-toned skin, brown eyes, and grey hair and beard, trimmed in 4th century fashion.” YOU ARE WRONG. LEARN YOUR HISTORY.

    • thekid7777

      Follow up: The coastal region of Turkey in which Patara is located was actually settled by the Ionian Greeks around 1200BC. Also, at the time of St. Nikolaus that part of the of the world was under Roman rule, so your assertion that he was Greek by way of political boundary is also wrong.

  • “Even the St. Nikolaus DNA recreation website you linked to called him a Greek and described him as having Greek features “This gave it Greek Mediterranean olive-toned skin, brown eyes, and grey hair and beard, trimmed in 4th century fashion.””

    ^You continue to duck details; it says OLIVE-TONED SKIN, just as you quoted, which is not white.

    To be clear, it did NOT say white, did it?

    Further, you ducked my question: When the Japanese occupied and modified the poltical boundary of China with the State of Manchuria, did all the Chinese that lived there all of a sudden became ethnically, ETHNICALLY Japanese?

    ^^Can you answer this please?

    • thekid7777

      For fuck sake dude, Italians and Greeks have always had olive-toned skin and they are considered to be white/European. Get over it man. St. Nikolaus was an Ethnic Greek, thereby making him European, thereby making him white. Unless you’re taking it upon yourself to declare that Italians and Greeks are no longer European. Is that what you’re saying? Italians and Greeks are actually Middle Eastern? Is that your argument? Because if that is the direction you’re heading you just need to stop talking right now.

      And yes, if the Japanese had occupied China for 500 years as the Greeks and Romans had at the time of St. Nikolaus those Chinese people might then be considered Japanese because over that 500 year time frame enough Japanese would have immigrated there to change the ethnic makeup of the local populace. That’s what happens when nations are conquered; people from the conquering nation move to the conquered territory. How do you think America came to be? But that is entirely irrelevant to this topic as the entire Patara region was initially settled by ethnic Greeks circa 1200BC. That region was always Greek, from the beginning. Even after it was conquered by the Persians it was still primarily Greek, I know this because that entire region revolted against the Persians in something called the Ionian Revolt which was a catalyst for the Persian invasion of Greece and the battles of Marathon and Thermopylae. Face it man St. Nikolaus was a GREEK!!!!! You have been and continue to be wrong. Learn history.

  • Olive toned =/= white toned.

    That’s why two separate words exists; olive =/= white. Kind of like how one is not equal to two, blue is not equal to red, short is not equal to tall, happy is not equal to sad, you get the picture?

    While they are not total opposites, olive-toned doesn’t mean white. At all. To assist you, I’ve brought to your attention the Fitzpatrick scale of skin tone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitzpatrick_scale

    Type VI isn’t equal to type one or two. Before you attempt to equivocate white into olive, please take note that this: http://i.imgur.com/vTEBApo.jpg

    Doesn’t look like this: http://i.imgur.com/dLV0aXV.jpg

    If the Fitzpatrick Scale holds Type I (scores 0–7) Light, pale white and Type IV (scores 25–30) Olive, moderate brown, Let’s use simple math: 0-7 doesn’t match 20-30… kinda of like the difference between seven dollars and thirty dollars.

    So, you can get into the semantic dance of nationality, while ignoring the FACT that nationality doesn’t always equal ethnicity, you CANNOT duck, dance and dive around the forensic evidence that his own aptly named St. Nickolas Center owns him as — as you quoted — OLIVE complexioned, is NOT white. That means, he is not white, he’s olive… which means he looks like how modern day Turks do, especially southern Turks. Or Arabs. Or Israelis. Or Palestinians… or like how most olive people look, due to the region of the world it is.

    Also, just in case you forget, can you answer my question please?

    When the Japanese occupied and modified the poltical boundary of China with the State of Manchuria, did all the Chinese that lived there all of a sudden became ethnically, ETHNICALLY Japanese?

    ^^Can you answer this please? Otherwise I’m simply going to deem you willfully ignorant or trolling and disengage.

    • thekid7777

      I was not aware that Olive was now an Ethnicity. You should notify the Census Bureau that you have created a new ethnicity, they’ll want to know. You’re also skipping over the fact that according to your skin tone chart, type III also contains olive color. Type III is medium WHITE to Olive. So you’ve really proven nothing here. The facts still remain, Greeks are Europeans, Europeans are considered white by modern standards. He was not Middle Eastern, he was not Arabic, he was not Black, he was not Asian. He was, in fact, European. End of story. Do yourself and the rest of the thinking world a favor and stop writing. You’re pretty terrible at this research and logic stuff.

  • The Bigger Picture

    Disregard science, forensic findings? My scale? This looks like you took this personal. You are an internet troll, good bye.

    • thekid7777

      You’re the one disregarding science, history and your own sources. You ignored the fact that on the skin tone chart YOU PROVIDED, tone level III contains white and olive toned skin. Go ahead and accuse me of being a “troll” simply because you can’t win this argument. People like you make me sad. You can’t simply admit that you’re wrong and move forward.

  • The Bigger Picture

    While olive tones may be considered Caucasian by the broadest definition, they are not considered “white”.

    And I just showed you pictures of Europeans who were also, not white. Did you ignore them, as you did the forensic evidence, because you are taking this personally?

    • thekid7777

      So what you’re telling me is that Italian and Greek people are not considered white? I’m not ignoring anything, you are. You’re ignoring not only ignoring the actual history of the region (which I have repeated several times in great detail) but also the history of the Santa Claus myth. As I told you already Santa Claus, as we know him, is only slightly based on St. Nikolaus. In fact the only part of Santa that is based on St. Nikolaus is the part about gift giving. Everything else, his flying sleigh, his appearance as a jolly old man in a red robe, and his name all come from European traditions (Norse, Dutch and British). You continue to ignore all this as well.

      Dude, I get it. You wanted to make a point about racist white people insisting that Santa is white. And then some guy comes along and totally disproves you and now you’re upset about it. But you need to man up, admit that you made a mistake and try to move forward.

  • The Bigger Picture

    Here’s another question, what evidence do you have that is evidence or proof that the Fitzpatrick Scale is, under my ownership or possession? Have you checked the copyright and/trademark laws on that?

    • thekid7777

      What the fuck are you talking about? I never said you owned it. Now you’re just being absurd because I’ve proven you wrong. Go ahead and throw your tantrum.

  • The Bigger Picture

    Of course, you with your emotional self would attempt the fallacy of equivocation; your “white” Santa is not at Type III, he’s at Type I, which is the reason why I provided pictures just in case you have no clue (you don’t).

    This: http://i.imgur.com/vTEBApo.jpg is nothing near Type III. That is not a near-olive fellow.

    This: http://i.imgur.com/dLV0aXV.jpg is olive, the first one is not.

    • thekid7777

      Dude, olive toned skin from the Italian and Greek region is a shade of white. Italian and Greek people are considered white. That’s it man, that’s the truth. Do I think St. Nikolaus looked like that mall Santa you have a pic of? No. Do I think the mythical Santa looks like that? Yes, because the actual mythical figure of Santa Claus does in fact look like that. The reason is because ST. NIKOLAUS WAS NOT SANTA!!!!!! I’ve explained this to you over and over. Obviously you have a learning disability.

  • The Bigger Picture

    You are still obfuscating white, nationality, European, and Caucasian. They are not equal, they are not all the same.

    And Italians were once not considered white, at all. You are an older fellow, perhaps you should be able to remember back that far? 1900’s 1920’s? Italians were not considered white.

    • thekid7777

      There was a time in America where only Brits and Americans were considered white. That doesn’t make it true. Today, Italians and Greeks are considered white. I’m not obfuscating anything. You’re still ignoring the root facts.

  • The Bigger Picture

    “You’re also skipping over the fact that according to YOUR skin tone chart, type III also contains olive color.”

    ^Did you not just say it’s MY skin tone chart?

    So again, when did I ever earned the rights to ownership of that scale?

    • thekid7777

      “Yours” as in you provided it as your evidence. Not “yours” as in you wrote it. God you’re some kind of dumbass. This has nothing to do with anything. All you’re trying to do is distract from the subject. You can’t win based on the facts so you’re going to try to find some BS point to nitpick. You are a ridiculous person.

  • “There was a time in America where only Brits and Americans were considered white.”

    Now you are getting somewhere. To be more accurate, only Brits, the Dutch or Germanic peoples and Scandinavian (Anglo-Saxon) were considered “white”. This is on the basis of what’s identified on that scale; Type I and II’s. Now with that, there were a few deviations; the Irish were not accepted as “white” much like the more visibly different Italians, until past the Great Depression.

    “That doesn’t make it true.”

    I like the fact that you mentioned that, because race is a SOCIAL construct, not a literal one. Nothing on race is true.

    “Today, Italians and Greeks are considered white.”

    ^And I’ll add, that’s because the concept of “race” (opposed to ethnicity which is literally biological) is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. This means, we made the divisions up ourselves. With that, anyone can be anything, and it’s all a matter of time when races dissolve or absorb others to make itself bigger or smaller. This is why I note the difference between literal skin tones, ethnicities, race, nationalities, region, etc.

    • thekid7777

      So are you now arguing that Santa Claus is Greek and not “white”?

  • I find it interesting that you seem to think I’m the sole person operating with these findings. Would you like to take issue with actual doctors who state the same?

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/plato-pop/201312/sorry-megyn-santa-claus-is-not-white

    • thekid7777

      You didn’t read this story did you. If you had you would notice a few things. First: this guy has a PhD in Philosophy which makes his degree about as useful to this topic as a horn growing out of his ass. So the fact that he is a doctor of something doesn’t matter. Second, he doesn’t even think St. Nikolaus was real. The fact that the Vatican has possession of his bones indicates to most of us that he was actually real. So this guy’s credibility is further shot. Third, pretty much everything this guy says supports my claims. He talks about the complete origin of Santa Claus and that he was only barely modeled on St. Nikolaus. That his origin is primarily from Norse and Dutch mythology and that he was created in their image which is why he’s white. So once again the evidence you have provided to support your own claim proves you wrong. My advice is for you to give up.

  • Wow, you really sound mad. I think you should relax a bit. This whole thing was over a Fox News anchor acting foolish over the fact that a blogger stated that due to the multitude of colors people exist as, who also celebrate Christmas, that Santa Claus should become something neutral, such as a penguin… which really is not different than any other animal icon, such as the Easter Bunny.

    Now, a bit of your argument has sense; he as a fictional character is depicted as white due to the region at which he became prominent, attaching to Christmas. The majority of Europe is white, got it.

    This is where you shit bricks; the majority of the world, is NOT white. At all. Further, if the majority of the world celebrates Christmas, guess what? Based on the same amount of necessity white Europeans felt to depict him as white, the world will end up using that same logic to depict him as something else. In Europe? Despite the fact (that you ignore) that there are non-white Europeans, white is the majority there thus majority rules, Saint Nick is white. Worldwide? White is the minority, and those of color (non-white) is the majority, and majority rules.

    As you know and I believe also support as a hot-blooded American, Capitalism IS our culture. So trust me when I tell you, if marketing science (psychology applied to capitalistic gain) and focus groups indicate we would make more money off of a Penguin Santa Claus, the change would happen, plain and simple perhaps over night.

    • thekid7777

      At what point did I ever say the majority of the world is white? I’d say the majority of the world is of Asian decent seeing as how the represent more than 1/6 of the Earth’s population. Your point here makes zero sense.

      I also never said anything about the majority of the world celebrating Santa Claus. In fact I don’t even know what the fuck you’re saying. It’s more nonsensical crap.

      Further, I do not ignore that there are non-white Europeans. As you have pointed out there are people of color who have been transplanted to Europe. European ancestry refers to people of Norse, Germanic, Celtic, Italian and Greek ancestry. Those are all historically white peoples as they all evolved in Europe. Once again, you’re not making any sense.

  • The question is, of course, why are we discussing the racial implications of Santa Claus in the first place? Isn’t it enough that the guy gets off his wide red keester and delivers toys to your kids every year without us getting all in a huff about the idea that all this good stuff might be coming from someone who might not look like us? Can a black man get a reindeer around here? No Sleighs For Turks?

    The truth is that Santa Claus is a marketing tool. Are there historical references to Santa going far into the dark of history, be they Father Christmas or St. Nicholas or Sinterklausen or the guy from Miracle on 34th St.? Yes.

    But if we’re all being honest here, the modern Santa Claus is largely the result of two companies with very powerful marketing departments creating an amalgamation of various world traditions (much like the American melting pot itself) that manifests itself in a fat, bearded white guy in a long red coat because Sears, Roebuck & Co. and Coca-Cola said he should, and that is the demographic to whom those companies continue to market.

    I’d contend that, knowing that Santa Claus is a result of said amalgamation, the idea that those marketing departments chose to whitewash his skin was inherently racist to begin with – Turks (or Greeks if you prefer) are certainly not pasty white, and Santa’s complexion does not at all represent a compromise or blending similar to the traditions he contains.

    But I also think that the idea of Santa being anything other than a human male is kinda ludicrous – a penguin? Really? I think we’d all settle for being able to portray our legends and heroes in ways with which our children – ALL of our children – can identify.

    And what’s liberal or conservative about that?

  • Good neutral point made.

  • crash102

    I normally don’t weigh in on these sorts of things but this debate has been so interesting and so heated I just had to do it. I hate to take sides against the author here but he is categorically wrong. The Kid has the facts correct. That part of Turkey, then called Anatolia, was actually settled by white Greeks long before Arabs arrived. Also, his description of the origin of Santa Claus is accurate. He is only slightly based on St. Niko and not his looks. Even if St. Niko was Arab, which he wasn’t, that wouldn’t make Santa Arab because Santa is not based on St. Niko entirely.

  • Star Seed

    Wait a sec, the Virgin Mary has been depicted in various colors and ethnicities and each one accepted. We have the Black Madonna, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Gaudalupe and many other representations. Yet the ethnicity of the real Mary is middle eastern Hebrew. Yet, people want to get bent out of shape over Santa? Not only that, but all of my life I was taught that Santa was based off of Saint Nick but because the real Saint Nick “whiteness” comes into question then the solution is to downplay his role into our myth of Santa? We took over so many myths, music and other relics of culture from other ethnicities and passed it off as our own but we will be damned if anyone tries to take Santa from us. Good grief, people.

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